I recently had a reader complain about the performance he was seeing out of his PMA (Permanent Magnet Alternator) wind turbines he purchased from Missouri Wind and Solar.  He said their units were not producing close to the power that the company claimed and he said he was getting zero support from the company.  His videos are below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aBhYCl0sH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CuuEzSYODg

And so after doing research, I realized he wasn't the only one having problems with their PMA wind turbines from Missouri Wind and Solar.

After doing a little of looking around on YouTube, I found this hilarious video of a PMA wind turbine and a guy who thinks he is producing a lot of power, but really isn't producing much power at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUjKyz9L7-o

He's excited about 3 Amps, but the voltage is only at 14 V, which means he's producing less than 75 Watts, barely enough to power 1 incandescent light bulb? But this amperage is only instantaneous, and it usually hangs around zero.  So maybe over the 3 minute video he has produced enough energy to keep a bulb on for about 10 seconds!!!

Missouri Wind and Solar tries to impress people with a graph of power output vs. RPM, but users don't need to see RPM, they need to see power output vs. wind speed, or at least a table showing how the RPM's vary vs. wind speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIzpbr520N8

In the above video, Jeff keeps saying "look at all those Amps" but remember, you don't care about instantaneous Amps, you care about total energy produced, which is Amps multiplied by Volts multiplied by time (for more info on this, check out our post on What is a kWh).  In the video, at about 18 mph, there are 3 turbines connected to produce a max of 125 A at about 15 V for a total of 1.875 kW.  Since there are 3 turbines connected this comes out to an average of 625 Watts per turbine.  But remember, these are just during the wind gusts.

Over the 3 minute period of time that Jeff is looking at his Volt and Amp meters, I would guess that the average Voltage is about 13 V and average Amperage is about 30 Amps (and that is being generous).  So if we assume these were the averages, his 3 turbines were producing about 390 Watts, or 130 Watt per turbine.

Maybe it's just me, but this is not that impressive.

This excellent video on YouTube shows why PMA wind turbines just don't live up to their rated claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzsV5oV8mvM

Here's the point:  Many of these small wind turbine dealers and promoters will try and impress you by showing you graphs and videos of their turbine's voltage, or amperage when the wind gusts, or how fast they spin, or how many unicorns their turbine can power, but there is only one value you need to be concerned with: Power output vs. Wind Speed.  You then need to consider what the average wind speed is in your location and only then can you decide if a wind turbine makes sense.

You don't care about instantaneous amperage output when the wind gusts.  You care about total power output of the wind turbine, and as I covered in my post on Solar PV vs. Wind Turbines, wind turbines just don't make sense for almost all locations in the U.S. because the average wind speed just isn't high enough.  You don't need gusts of wind, you need steady, strong wind to produce a lot of energy from wind turbines.  Don't get suckered in by "fancy" YouTube clips.

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Comments

Anonymous (not verified) Fri, 06/03/2011 - 23:16
I appreciate someone taking the time to defend Missouri Wind and Solar. I am shocked by how much mud slinging has been thrown in his direction. A lot of the attacks seem to be more personal toward Jeff whom I know to be a decent, hard working guy. He has spent 30 some years working with appliances, electronics, etc. I can't imagine someone with that much experience and expertise intentionally throwing himself under the bus to scam people that have goals similar to his own - get off the grid and save some money in the process. The guy is truly a dedicated do-it-yourself individual who has had more satisfied customers than naysayers.
ckmapawatt's picture
ckmapawatt Fri, 06/03/2011 - 16:37
Alright Gentlemen, this is turning into a sh*t throwing contest. Unless someone can show me some data verified by an independent third party, I"m calling B.S. on ALL PMA turbines. Show me an example of where a PMA turbine system is a better investment that a solar PV system and maybe then I wont close comments. If we continue with "he said/she said" I'm closing comments. I would like to see one of your data logs of power output over a period of time.
Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 04/28/2011 - 18:16
Well if anyone wants two Missouri Wind and Solar 11 blade 24 volt A/C turbines I will sell you mine. Customer support is great if you want to listen to their BS. Emails, yea, I have sent over 20 and received about 4 or 5. Oh did I tell you that most emails they don't answer all the questions in them so you have to send them email which, OH, they must have missed that one. They seem like nice people but they don't back up their product. Thanks Jeff, you lost a customer and let me tell you this, I will keep BAD MOUTHING your company so no one else gets the same CRAP I have from you. No I am not a dealer nor a nother company just bad mouthing you Jeff I bought two and paid out of my own pocket hard earned money for CRAP. 10 mph winds I get almost 75% of the days on my property and I have to use a generator to charge my batteries for lighting.
Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 05/01/2011 - 20:27
I will be honest I had a really bad experience with jeff myself and it turned into a big battle on youtube. I personally have tried the patriot 1000 watt paper weight and a set of flacon blades which are good for the aluminum scrap. I also have tried the the windblue with windy nation's 5 blades and i have to say the wind blue for the cost total with mount and falcon blades was worth it. Since I have moved on to the windmax which does produce 500 watts often in a 30 mph wind and around 50 watts in a 10 mph wind at 12 volt D/C. So far i'm really pleased with the wind max and the numbers they post on website are dead on. For legal reason i'm no longer to post video's of jeff's product but I did get a refund on the money i spent with him. I'm a full time licensed electrician with over 18 experience in industrial commercial applications. The most important thing to remember with any alternative energy system is watts and how long it potential can put that wattage out for. Watts are the only common denominator between a/c and d/c not amp's. the wattage drawn from your batteries has to be figured from volts times amps at whatever voltage your home is using depending on what country you live in . Then you factor in the amp's by whatever load you putting on your inverter and then you also have to factor in the efficiency of the inverter and how much power your loosing in watts in the conversion of d/c to a/c. There are a few turbines out there though that putt out good wattage and they numbers they say they do. In most location's its best to have a hybrid system both wind and solar to get a good amount of steady constant wattage from a day. Some area's might might want to go a bit more wind vs. solar and some more solar vs. wind. At the end of the day thought a hybrid system will produce more kilowatts in a day.
Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 05/04/2011 - 08:05
Missouri has the worst company I have ever dealt with and his videos on how many amps his turbines put out is so far from the truth. His video claims 120 amps 24 volt system in 18 mph wind ah more like 12 amps. 18 mph on his crappy turbines produce hardly anything. I purchased 2 of his turbines and they went good for about a month, then completely quit working sent 4 emails lefts 3 messages no return on any of them. Sent them to Hydrogen Appliance to be fixed and come to find out 4 of the magnets were backwards. I have 8 of these turbines on my home 6 from hydrogen appliance and now 2 from Missouri wind that were completely redone by hydrogen appliance. Giving this over to the attorney and will never do business with Missouri Wind again. If you want a good turbine at a much lower cost with no bullcrap claims, I would buy from hydrogen appliance I have had a few problems with them and Bob has fixed them all for free and will actually answer his phone. the 8 turbines on my home have taken my power bill from $500 a month to $235 so not a complete loss of electric bill but I am happy with the result.
Anonymous (not verified) Sat, 06/04/2011 - 01:03
Who are you trying to kid Marvin, or should i say Bob, owner of Thermodyne, Hydrogen Appliances in California. Check it out people Eddy Sanders,Larry Amis,Bill Westly and Marvin are DEFINETLY BOB GREENE,OWNER OF THERMODYNE. He has trashed Missouri Wind and Jeff over and over then tells us his beautiful exsperience with Hydrogen appliance.com. All these alias's say Bob has to fix Jeffs junk.He gives you exact percentages, part numbers and hydrogenappliances.com over and over. Thermodyne, Hydrogen Appliances and qaz661 on ebay is Bob Greene, the owner of all 3. Bob sells JUNK. Here's my exsperinece with Hornet blades.I bought 6 blades and hub for my cabin in Montana. First 40 mph wind and the damn blade hub bent backwards due to it only being 1/8" thick. The blades hit the tower and shattered sending sharp swords flying everywhere.One embedded itself in my wood shed which took everything i had to pull it out. Thank god no one got killed.The Hornet blades are not carbon fibre!! there recycled black brittle plastic. I went to the Raptor Generation 4 blades from Missouri Wind And Solar. 7 blades and a hub. the hub is 3/16" thick. So far 70 mph winds and below zero temps and there still going strong.There light grey in color. They definetly are good looking blades. Jeff made a video of them being made in the Missouri factory. Jeff and his wife at Missouri Wind have answered all my dumb questions on the phone and my emails. To much BS is being said about them on this forum and i mean BS. Jeff, my hats off to you and MWAS for all the informative videos you put out on wind turbines and solar panels on YouTube at jeffmolly1 . Keep up the good work.
Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:58
I cannot even tell you how much I HATE Jeff and Missouri Wind and Solar. Scam artists, lying thieves! I am single Dad with three children so money is tight. I saved up for 9 months to buy one of Jeff's 1500 Watt wind turbine systems in the hope of cutting our electric bill down. Jeff PROMISED me 1500 Watts which would have made a very nice dent in my electric bill. You know what I got from this liar, scam artist? 7 Watts in 12 mph wind and 210 Watts when the wind was blowing 25 mph! I asked for a refund and he called me an a-hole! Missouri Wind and Solar and Jeff stole my money and then called me an a-hole? What a crooked company! He acts like he is an American Patriot when what he really is, is a thief. I feel a little better getting that off my chest.
Anonymous (not verified) Tue, 05/31/2011 - 18:54
I just watched his new truck test video on ebay and it is unbelievable what he is now claiming; over 1400 watts at 30 mph with his new A/C car PMA! That is frankly impossible, so the test had to be rigged. According to a major car PMA supplier, 450 watts is the absolute most you can get from a car pma at 30 mph with those blades. He has clearly crossed the line this time filming himself in the act. I can't believe ebay is letting him perpetuate this scam.
ckmapawatt's picture
ckmapawatt Tue, 05/31/2011 - 20:47
Roger, Unfortunately ebay, google, youtube, etc. have no ability to go after/test fraud cases (if that is what this is). Just check out our post on Magniwork, which is a 100% scam, and Google still promotes happily (with ads at least).
Anonymous (not verified) Sat, 05/07/2011 - 19:14
This SNAKE-OIL MONGREL caught me for over $3000.00. Once he's got your money "THAT'S IT" You will never hear from again. BE WARNED_______________BE WARNED________________BE WARNED.

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